Sunday, June 13, 2004
In re chakira
Someone sent me a link to the chakira post about BTLs and professional life/ law school. The post was so factually inaccurate and self serving that I felt compelled to provide a detailed response. It is long, but it will finally put to rest any doubts concerning YUs failures (btw, im not a BTL).
Chakira- claiming that YU students are better equipped to handle the academic and outside world is like claiming that midgets would do better than seven footers in the NBA. Your point about how BTLs do “worse in life” than YU students is more than just incorrect, it is completely absurd and has zero basis in reality. Not only do a higher rate of yeshivish and BTL students get into top law schools and professions, once there, they perform better academically, socially, and tend to get into more top firms. I know there is no way for a 19 year old YU student to have any way of knowing this. In the future, you shouldn’t believe everything the folks at YU tell you.
At top law schools far more yeshivish students get admitted than YU students, and at a much higher rate. At Columbia, the ratio is something like 4 to 1. Once there, yeshivish students, poor writing and all, perform far better on their exams and writing assignments than YU students and consistently receive the prestigious stone and kents honors, which YU students rarely do. Yeshivish students also receive much higher grades on legal philosophy and economics courses. But how can this be??? The administration at YU assured you that you would be receiving a top secular degree that would prepare you for the outside world the way cuny accounting degrees and touro couldn’t.
At Penn, the number one student in his class is a touro graduate. He will also be working at the top law firm in the country. Even at non-national schools, such as Fordham, you see how law review is loaded with yeshivish students, and they go on to work at top firms. If you look at profiles of associates/ partners at top law firms you will see far more yeshivish folks at top ranks and partnership level. The only firms were YU grads constantly succeed are YU firms (i.e. kaye scholler). If they are not around their own type, they cannot succeed. Fact is, that most YU grads, with all their superior education, either and up jobless, or have to settle for working for some jewish/ YU type agency.
Its ironic that the very jews who are receiving a broad secular education in liberal arts are the very jews who cannot escape the jewish world and succeed in the secular one.
Having never actually worked or learned in the outside world, young chakira assumes that the secular education he receives at YU is top rate. Well, chaki, it seems you were had. Not only does YU get no respect in the yeshivish world, it gets even less respect in the secular world. I was told by someone in Columbia college, how the director of admissions of Columbia law school came to talk at the college. She went on to tell the college students about admissions, and how some schools are stronger and more academically rigorous, so they put more value on their gpas and course selection, while other schools are not as academically intense and therefore put little values on their GPAs and course selection. YU was the example she gave for the lesser school. All the students sitting there had a good laugh. Sorry chaki, but once you leave the hallowed halls of YU, your education will not be respected.
But even more startling than YU student’s poor academic success and performance, is their total failure on the social and professional side.
Most frum people who attend top academic programs or work in top professional firms will tell how YU people are the loners, not wanting to interact socially with anyone who isn’t a YU type. Most of you at top schools and jobs have probably seen first hand how far this goes. YU students sitting alone in the hallway, not interacting with anyone, or the company goes out for drinks or to the cafeteria for lunch, and the YU student stays back and eats his sandwich alone, yearning for the days at YU when he was considered cool and had many friends. Most of the yeshivish students, on the otherhand are quite outgoing, befriend different types of people and have study groups with both jew and goyim alike. Something rarely seem with YU students.
On my blog, I once quoted someones description of YU. Although it was a little angry sounding, it was quite accurate.
"Its time these pasty-faced mother&%*$s with their Nextel phones, Haztalah walkie-talkies, daddy's (or YU's) charge card, hexagonal wire-rimmed spectacles, high-speed connections to only Simchas, nicely groomed sideburns, virginal 16 year old Stern girlfriends and Shloime Dachs CDs realized that they are only considered cool by a very very (very) small minority of people on this planet. Everyone else looks at you with apprehension and a sort of queasy sense of unease.
If you have an inflated ego (or any sense of self worth) and feel like you 'belong' because you are involved in one of these groups, you are in for some RUDE awakenings after leaving the YU world (or maybe you can just move to Teaneck or the Five-Towns, and keep the whole charade going...)."
No one outside YU, jew or otherwise, gets along with YU folks, nor do YU people make an effort to try to change this. YUs “torah” isn’t respected in the yeshiva world, their academics is laughed upon by secular universities, and the few who make it to top schools, perform sub par. In the unlikely event that YU students do get a good job, they are kept at low levels and rarely promoted to partner. You will find this out soon , young chakira.
Is this what you call doing better?
Chakira- claiming that YU students are better equipped to handle the academic and outside world is like claiming that midgets would do better than seven footers in the NBA. Your point about how BTLs do “worse in life” than YU students is more than just incorrect, it is completely absurd and has zero basis in reality. Not only do a higher rate of yeshivish and BTL students get into top law schools and professions, once there, they perform better academically, socially, and tend to get into more top firms. I know there is no way for a 19 year old YU student to have any way of knowing this. In the future, you shouldn’t believe everything the folks at YU tell you.
At top law schools far more yeshivish students get admitted than YU students, and at a much higher rate. At Columbia, the ratio is something like 4 to 1. Once there, yeshivish students, poor writing and all, perform far better on their exams and writing assignments than YU students and consistently receive the prestigious stone and kents honors, which YU students rarely do. Yeshivish students also receive much higher grades on legal philosophy and economics courses. But how can this be??? The administration at YU assured you that you would be receiving a top secular degree that would prepare you for the outside world the way cuny accounting degrees and touro couldn’t.
At Penn, the number one student in his class is a touro graduate. He will also be working at the top law firm in the country. Even at non-national schools, such as Fordham, you see how law review is loaded with yeshivish students, and they go on to work at top firms. If you look at profiles of associates/ partners at top law firms you will see far more yeshivish folks at top ranks and partnership level. The only firms were YU grads constantly succeed are YU firms (i.e. kaye scholler). If they are not around their own type, they cannot succeed. Fact is, that most YU grads, with all their superior education, either and up jobless, or have to settle for working for some jewish/ YU type agency.
Its ironic that the very jews who are receiving a broad secular education in liberal arts are the very jews who cannot escape the jewish world and succeed in the secular one.
Having never actually worked or learned in the outside world, young chakira assumes that the secular education he receives at YU is top rate. Well, chaki, it seems you were had. Not only does YU get no respect in the yeshivish world, it gets even less respect in the secular world. I was told by someone in Columbia college, how the director of admissions of Columbia law school came to talk at the college. She went on to tell the college students about admissions, and how some schools are stronger and more academically rigorous, so they put more value on their gpas and course selection, while other schools are not as academically intense and therefore put little values on their GPAs and course selection. YU was the example she gave for the lesser school. All the students sitting there had a good laugh. Sorry chaki, but once you leave the hallowed halls of YU, your education will not be respected.
But even more startling than YU student’s poor academic success and performance, is their total failure on the social and professional side.
Most frum people who attend top academic programs or work in top professional firms will tell how YU people are the loners, not wanting to interact socially with anyone who isn’t a YU type. Most of you at top schools and jobs have probably seen first hand how far this goes. YU students sitting alone in the hallway, not interacting with anyone, or the company goes out for drinks or to the cafeteria for lunch, and the YU student stays back and eats his sandwich alone, yearning for the days at YU when he was considered cool and had many friends. Most of the yeshivish students, on the otherhand are quite outgoing, befriend different types of people and have study groups with both jew and goyim alike. Something rarely seem with YU students.
On my blog, I once quoted someones description of YU. Although it was a little angry sounding, it was quite accurate.
"Its time these pasty-faced mother&%*$s with their Nextel phones, Haztalah walkie-talkies, daddy's (or YU's) charge card, hexagonal wire-rimmed spectacles, high-speed connections to only Simchas, nicely groomed sideburns, virginal 16 year old Stern girlfriends and Shloime Dachs CDs realized that they are only considered cool by a very very (very) small minority of people on this planet. Everyone else looks at you with apprehension and a sort of queasy sense of unease.
If you have an inflated ego (or any sense of self worth) and feel like you 'belong' because you are involved in one of these groups, you are in for some RUDE awakenings after leaving the YU world (or maybe you can just move to Teaneck or the Five-Towns, and keep the whole charade going...)."
No one outside YU, jew or otherwise, gets along with YU folks, nor do YU people make an effort to try to change this. YUs “torah” isn’t respected in the yeshiva world, their academics is laughed upon by secular universities, and the few who make it to top schools, perform sub par. In the unlikely event that YU students do get a good job, they are kept at low levels and rarely promoted to partner. You will find this out soon , young chakira.
Is this what you call doing better?
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